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The Napoleonic Wars 1792-1815

The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby Iain » May 12th, 2016, 10:06 am

Good morning Peter...

Well, it seems that you were right. If you go to http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.ph ... 70.new#new
it will confirm Q.M.

@Andrew and John.

Despite my 10 years in the Scots Guards, that was a rank I always had difficulty with. I agree with everything you mentioned Andrew..., but of course John's the 3rd Foot Guard's specialist.

All very interesting. Lol..., and Ralf Fraser a drunkard ! That confirms his Glasgow accent and origins..., lol. ;)

..., Iain.
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby John Franklin » May 12th, 2016, 11:10 pm

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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby peterjreeve » May 13th, 2016, 10:14 pm

Many thanks again to Iain and John for the Brice McGregor information.

Following this post, I'm going to try and post a jpg of the registration entry (name and occupation) from the registers of the United Grand Lodge of England which is also difficult to read. I'd appreciate your views - does it say 'Drill Serjt' ? And would a subsequent rank of QM Serjeant represent a promotion and result in a higher pension?

The entry dates from when he joined the Lodge of United Strength in May 1816. You'll see his name is incorrectly recorded as 'Bice', but it is correctly shown as 'Brice' in two subsequent volumes recording his continuing membership through to his death in 1846. In this register, he is recorded as a 'joining member' from '895' which was an ambulatory military lodge, warranted by the Grand Lodge of Ireland, and associated with the 71st Highland Light Infantry. See http://ginge.info/lodgehli/Docs/71st_Lodge_History.pdf

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that Brice, using the name Charles, may originally have been initiated in Lodge 895 in around 1805, but I cannot now find that source. Such an initiation would have been unusual, as these military lodges were not allowed to initiate men from other regiments and were fined or even closed down by the Grand Lodge for transgressions of the rules. See
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yxs ... 95&f=false

Does anyone know if Brice could have served with the 71st HLI in around 1805 - or if the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards and the 71st HLI were somehow connected?
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby peterjreeve » May 13th, 2016, 10:17 pm

Brice McGregor UGLE.png
Brice McGregor UGLE.png (238.41 KiB) Viewed 446 times
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby peterjreeve » May 14th, 2016, 5:37 am

Hi, I'm here again - this forum is addictive!

I've now re-discovered the records of "Lodge 895 71st Regt" in the registers of the Grand Lodge of Freemasons of Ireland. I think Brice McGregor is wrongly recorded there as 'Bryan McGregor' with a date of April 9th 1816 (not 1805 as I previously thought).

I'm fairly sure this 'Bryan' is actually Brice, as the three other men who became joining members of the Lodge of United Strength in London along with Brice on May 21st 1816 - Joseph Plumtree, Thomas Goddard and William McRoberts - are also recorded in the register of Lodge 895 with the same date in April 1816. It looks very likely that the four of them were friends and colleagues who were initiated into freemasonry together in Lodge 895 and then all transferred to the lodge in London a month later.

Fascinating!
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby John Franklin » May 14th, 2016, 1:13 pm

Peter,

Of the three men you list I can confirm that Goddard and McRobert were members of the 3rd Foot Guards. For example:

William McRobert enlisted in the 3rd Foot Guards on the 29th April 1805. Remarkably, he only served as a Private for 24 days before being elevated to the rank of Serjeant. (This is because he had previously served in the Huntley Militia.) He served with the 1st Battalion of the regiment in the Peninsular, being present at the battles of Talavera, Busaco, Fuentes d’Onoro and Ciudad Rodrigo. He later received a Military General Service Medal with 4 clasps. He was present as Serjeant Major of the 2nd Battalion, 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards during the battles of Les Quatre Bras and Waterloo. He was discharged from the 3rd Foot Guards on the 2nd May 1820 with the rank of Serjeant Major, and the very next day joined the Albany Staff. He served in this capacity until 20th September 1825 when, at the age of 43, he was discharged from the army.

I hope the above is of some use.

Kind regards

John
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby Andrew » May 14th, 2016, 8:09 pm

John Franklin wrote:Peter,

I would say that based on the document you kindly shared, Brice McGregor certainly held the rank of Quartermaster Serjeant. This is perplexing, as it is not noted on his service record, which is held by Regimental Headquarters Scots Guards, nor is it recorded in the NCO Succession book, also held by RHQ Scots Guards.

Quartermaster Serjeant was certainly a rank during this period, rather than an appointment. I referred to the documentation relating to Brice McGregor's contemporary, Joseph Aston, who was commissioned from the 'rank' of QM Serjeant to full Quartermaster of the Scots Fusilier Guards, as they were called, on the 9th August 1833. Colour Serjeant was an appointment, not a rank, as it was a 'badge of honour'.
Kind regards
John


Now you have got me interested! I hope we can maintain two strands within the same post. As I said, I am not an expert on Napoleonic ranks of the British army, but this raises some interesting questions in my mind.

1. If QM Sergeant is a rank, what rank badge did they wear (this is not just aimed at John!)?
2. You mention promotion to 'full Quartermaster.' Was this a rank too? Modern QMs are captains or majors; ie 'QM' is an appointment rather than a rank.
3. As I said, colour sergeant (or serjeant depending on regiment) is a modern rank. I wonder, if it was an appointment in Napoleonic times, does anyone know when it changed from being an appointment to being a rank. On modern parades, colour sergeants still march either sides of the colour bearers to protect the colours (and bearers!).

Thanks,

Andrew
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby peterjreeve » May 15th, 2016, 11:39 am

Screenshot 2016-05-15 12.26.18.png
Screenshot 2016-05-15 12.26.18.png (291.25 KiB) Viewed 410 times
John - many thanks again for the information on William McRobert and Thomas Goddard. I'm a complete novice in military matters - could you clarify what is meant by the reference to 'Albany staff' please?

I've now found that Joseph Plumtree was also a Serjeant in the 3rd Guards of Foot and was discharged aged 42 in February, 1816 after 23 years of service. I'm now wondering......if he was discharged in February, how come he was initiated into the Irish Freemasons military lodge No 895 two months later in April along with his 3rd Guards colleagues Brice McGregor, William McRobert and Thomas Goddard? And how come four 3rd Guards NCOs were allowed in the 71st Highland Light Infantry's lodge? All very odd!

Re the question of ranks, it might help the discussion with Andrew if I post a JPG of the 'Statement of Service' panel from a discharge certificate showing the pre-printed column headings (which appear to relate to ranks?) - this is Joseph Plumtree's and dates from 1816.

By the way, Brice McGregor's 'statement of service' shows him as having served as QM Serjeant for 3 yrs 256 days at the date of his discharge on January 6th, 1823. I'll leave you to work out the date of his promotion - if it was indeed a promotion!

Cheers Peter
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby John Franklin » May 15th, 2016, 11:58 am

Peter,

The 'Albany Staff' reference simply means that McRobert was working in a military capacity on the staff of Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Fr ... and_Albany


John



P.S. I'll post some details on the appointments and ranks of QM Serjeant, Quartermaster and Colour Serjeasnt later today.
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Re: The 3rd Regiment of Foot : (The Scots Guards)

Postby Iain » May 16th, 2016, 10:43 am

John Franklin wrote:Hello Iain,

More food for thought on Rootschat, no doubt!

Kind regards
John


Lol..., I think I know what you are aiming at there John. The Lilywhites will, be upset ! ;)
Amazing... And the Grenadiers too ! Wow...

Kind Regards..., Iain.

@Peter... Extremely interesting !
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