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A flag discovered.

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A flag discovered.

Postby Josh&Historyland » April 29th, 2017, 11:55 am

But were the colour's carried to Hougoumont? I had read they were kept on the ridge.

http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/collier-row-family-find-rare-200-year-old-flag-from-the-battle-of-waterloo-1-4993855

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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby Andrew » April 29th, 2017, 8:56 pm

Not sure they would have had 'Waterloo' painted on them at the battle (!!), but I guess it could have been added afterwards. I wonder how they know it was carried at Hougoumont; as you say Josh, first hand sources have the colours retained on the ridge with a company or two to guard them. A bit of hype here I think; I would like to know the provenance they have, or is it wishful thinking?

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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby DaveH » April 29th, 2017, 9:24 pm

I was interested to see the most recent news about the flag from HMS Minotaur, formerly in Selling church in Kent. https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... falgar-day Years ago, I was the one, who identified the other flag as Austrian, not Spanish, and wrote an article in Age of Napoleon mag about how it got there. I am not clear about what happened to the Austrian flag.
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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby CMcLeod2012 » April 30th, 2017, 4:48 am

According to various Ospreys the Colour does look like the 15th Co. Coldstreams - with Gold Crown of Charlemagne at the centre.
But the Osprey also says that it was the Colour of the 13th Co. that was at Waterloo !
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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby DaveH » April 30th, 2017, 5:31 pm

The NMM is believed to have paid £175,000 for the Austrian flag and the Union flag (too big to be a jack I think) from HMS Minotaur.
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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby Iain » April 30th, 2017, 5:32 pm

Although I’m inclined to agree with Andrew, I’m out of my depth here so I can’t comment. Except that the Scots Guards Colours remained on the ridge according to RHQ.

Question: The Coldstreamers founded in 1650; so with 165 years of battle honours, shouldn’t there have been more names on the flag ?
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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby Josh&Historyland » April 30th, 2017, 7:56 pm

Although the army had accrued a long list of General actions they could use. Battle honours only became commonplace after Waterloo, though you will see honours for things like Dettingen, Minden, Quebec and the odd Havana or Gibraltar etc, most regiments were only seriously starting to put honours on the colour's by 1815 and usually you'd only see a scattering of a few important names, or just one in some cases, in the Napoleonic Wars. During the Victorian era the practice went into warp drive. Indeed many regiments that served in many battles of the Peninsular War simply put Peninsula up.

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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby jf42 » May 1st, 2017, 7:27 am

Josh&Historyland wrote:Although the army had accrued a long list of General actions they could use. Battle honours only became commonplace after Waterloo, though you will see honours for things like Dettingen, Minden, Quebec and the odd Havana or Gibraltar etc, most regiments were only seriously starting to put honours on the colour's by 1815 and usually you'd only see a scattering of a few important names, or just one in some cases, in the Napoleonic Wars. During the Victorian era the practice went into warp drive. Indeed many regiments that served in many battles of the Peninsular War simply put Peninsula up.

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Indeed. Until 1801, there were only a handful of regiments that bore honours on their colours. The 18th Royal Irish and 15th King's Light Dragoons each had one, for Namur in 1695 and Emsdorf in 1760, resepctively, and in 1784 four regiments- 12th, 39th, 56th, 58th - had been granted the right display the Castle and Key of Gibraltar on colours and appointments for their defence of the fortress during the Spanish siege of 1779-83. Some regiments would later display cap distinctions and emblems of varying authenticity supposedly commemorating actions and campaigns in the C18th but the majority of C17th and C18th 'battle honours' were awarded retrospectively, as late as 1909.

The system of battle honours as we recognise it today dates from the 'Sphinx superscribed Egypt' awarded to all units in Abercromby's expeditionary force of 1801. In the same year, the first retrospective battle honour was awarded for the highly symbolic victory of Minden in the Annus Mirabilis of 1759. From that point on, the insitution of battle honours gained momentum as the British Army began to clock up victories in the Peninsula and India.

In principle all awards emanated from the King but in practice decisions to grant awards were made at Horse Guards- although there was doubtless a degree of lobbying from early on. The Duke of York understood the importance of nurturing of regimental esprit de corps and national pride in this way, and this led to his establishing the National Military Record in 1822.

By 1815, I believe the Coldstream Guards would have displayed Talavera, Barrosa and Salamanca on their colours, together with Peninsula, perhaps ('Peninsula' as an honour was rolled out from 1812 onwards). In addition, they had 'Linselles' for the Foot Guards' spectacular rout of the French in 1793; another early 'retrospective' awarded in 1811. All the other Peninsula honours were granted post-war. '
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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby unclearthur » May 1st, 2017, 9:07 am

'It's like finding Napoleon's hat.'

How many of those did he have, I wonder? :lol:
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Re: A flag discovered.

Postby jf42 » May 1st, 2017, 9:44 am

"Meeting Napoleon’s demand for hats was a lucrative business for the Parisian hatmaker Poupard who between 1800 and 1815 supplied him with some 170 bicornes at over 48 Francs each. Yet even in death the former Emperor was inseparable from his ‘petit chapeau’, and one of the four hats that had accompanied him into exile on the island of St. Helena was placed in his coffin."

http://www.100days.eu/items/show/127
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