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The Napoleonic Wars 1792-1815

'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

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'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Iain » May 1st, 2017, 5:49 pm

Hi All…

I’d like some help in regards to the ‘Scots Guards’ Company Returns dated the 24th of June 1815.
Unfortunately, the annexed images have been reduced to a minimum to allow them to be published here. As such..., they are now fuzzy ! In the meantime, if anyone is not in passion of the HD versions, you can PM me with an email address and I’ll send them on.

Questions:

- What exactly is a Company Return ? (taking into consideration that this one spans more than one year)
- Why on the second page is it signed and dated the 26th Day of March 1816 ?
- On the 3rd page, Brice McGregor is down as a Sergeant. Why is there no CSM mentioned ?
- No Ensign is mentioned ! (could this be more proof that the colours remained on the ridge ?)
- A note: Sgt Fraser is not mentioned; probably because he belongs to HQ Company.
- The date is after the battle, so why are there so few indicated as dead ?
- Why are there no Lance Corporals mentioned ?
- Page 3: On the right, what are “casuals…, since 24 December 1814”? Could this be their wives like the wife of George Osbourne who married a few months earlier in Belgium and received the Queen’s Bounty on her return to the UK ?
- Try as I may, I can’t find Clay’s friend Philpot in the list. (he was killed by the southern gate in the afternoon)


Thanks…, Iain.
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2nd Bn 3rd FG Masters June 1815.JPG
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2nd Bn 3rd FG Masters June 1815a.JPG (226.95 KiB) Viewed 299 times
2nd Bn 3rd FG Masters June 1815b.JPG
2nd Bn 3rd FG Masters June 1815b.JPG (229.51 KiB) Viewed 299 times
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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby jf42 » May 1st, 2017, 7:08 pm

Iain wrote:Hi All…


Questions:

- What exactly is a Company Return ? (taking into consideration that this one spans more than one year)
- Why on the second page is it signed and dated the 26th Day of March 1816 ?
- On the 3rd page, Brice McGregor is down as a Sergeant. Why is there no CSM mentioned ?
- No Ensign is mentioned ! (could this be more proof that the colours remained on the ridge ?)
- A note: Sgt Fraser is not mentioned; probably because he belongs to HQ Company.
- The date is after the battle, so why are there so few indicated as dead ?
- Why are there no Lance Corporals mentioned ?
- Page 3: On the right, what are “casuals…, since 24 December 1814”? Could this be their wives like the wife of George Osbourne who married a few months earlier in Belgium and received the Queen’s Bounty on her return to the UK ?
- Try as I may, I can’t find Clay’s friend Philpot in the list. (he was killed by the southern gate in the afternoon)


Thanks…, Iain.


Iain, the return is a record of men and officers serving on the rolls of the company, whether present or absent ( sick, detached or on leave, etc) for the purposes of pay.

Usually the names of men joining or leaving are listed, wth dates, as are those who have died (for whatever reason); again for purposes of pay.

Rolls were made completed bi-annually on 24th June and 24th December. The date '26th Day of March 1816' is when the document relating to 24th June 21815 was completed with the relevant facts and signed, the battalion being on campaign on the 24th June and officers having other more pressing duties. For obvious reasons this happened fairly often in wartime.

The rank of Company Sergeant Major did not exist in 1815 and L/Cpls did not appear in the British Army until later in the C19th (as it is Lance Corporal is not a rank but an appointment and would not appear in the rolls, which listed only Privates Corporals Sergeants and Drummers.)

'Casuals,' I believe, were men who had been drawing pay at some time during any given muster period, but who were not serving at the end date of the roll.
Last edited by jf42 on May 2nd, 2017, 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Iain » May 2nd, 2017, 5:51 am

JF…, you’re a hive of information ! Thanks !

That upsets some of my research and thank goodness I posted this.
I knew that the Waterloo Roll Call could not be counted on and here’s more proof in as much as Brice McGregor and Ralph Fraser are down as CSMs.
https://archive.org/details/waterloorollcall00daltuoft

As such and with no CSMs, I suppose the halberd was issued to the senior Sergeant. As such, the SG at Hougoumont had two with McGregor and more especially Fraser. (who arrived on the morning of the 18th from HQ Company) Surprised nobody contradicted my image change of Fraser’s halberd to a musket during the Fraser/Cubières incident. I also vaguely remembering some one mentioning that only CSMs had them.
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3532
Anyway…, lol…, looks as if I’m now going to have to change the image again.
Once again, all the Re-enactment Groups have it right !

Corporal as a ‘first rank’ would have had two chevrons I suppose as the sergeants have three.
This also echoes back to Queen Victoria who did not want her Guards to have one-chevron Lance Corporal Appointments.
There’s more to all this history than meets the eye !

Thank you JF…, Iain.
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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Iain » May 22nd, 2017, 9:42 am

Hi All…

For the time being, I’m researching Private George Osbourne of the 3rd Foot Guards.
He’s the one that got married on the 23rd of April 1815 at Enghien, Belgium.
More details can be seen here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=768744.0

One of my multiple problems is where did George Osborne come from ?
As I can’t find him on the Light Company Returns, (above) is it possible that he belonged to HQ Company, and perhaps descended with Sgt Fraser on the morning of the 18th ?
If anyone has the HQ Returns, please may I ask if he’s mentioned there.

Thanks in advance…, Iain.
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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Owen » May 22nd, 2017, 11:35 am

Iain,

According to the Waterloo medal record on FMP, Osbourne was in Lieutenant Colonel Hon. Sir Alexr. Gordon's Company at Waterloo.

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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Iain » May 22nd, 2017, 12:17 pm

Thank you Owen…, very kind of you.

Well, that puts a spanner in the works of him fighting at Hougoumont.
This aspect goes back to my newbie status in 2014 when someone/somewhere said he was with the Light Company.
Phew !! More research ! ;)

PS
This also means that his new wife (a camp follower) would have been immediately whisked off to behind the lines on the evening of the 17th.
Some people had her being the only woman at Hougoumont (apart from the Gardener’s daughter) and being shot there.
Perhaps the reason why I thought Osbourne was with the Light Company.
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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Owen » May 22nd, 2017, 9:37 pm

Iain,

I have found his surname spelled Osborne and Osbourne. I have found a copy of the service record for a George Osborne of 3rd Foot Guards & his Waterloo medal muster entry for Gordon's Company. If you pm me your email address, I will send them to you.

Owen

P.S.

Since posting the above, I have looked through my copy of the Waterloo medal musters and see that there was a Private George Osbourn (no 'e') listed as serving with Lt Col Edward Bowaters Company. In this context - an extract from an article on Hougoumont by Mck Crumpling reads http://waterloo200.org/themes/science-technology/keep-hougoumont-at-what-price/

"One poignant, yet uncorroborated and probably apocryphal story, concerned a remarkable injury affecting the wife of Private George Osborne of the 3rd Foot Guards. She had married George at Engien on the 23rd April 1815. She worked all day of the 18th with the wounded, tearing up her own clothing for bandages. She had dressed Captain Edward Bowater’s wound on the battlefield and, was then wounded in the left arm and breast. She survived and was awarded the Queen’s Bounty for her bravery. I’m fairly certain this event would have taken place on the ridge, and have no evidence of women serving at Hougoumont – although I suppose we can never be sure."

In the same Muster Roll, the man in Gordon's Company is spelled George "Osbourne".

These are the only two men bearing the name Osborne/Osbourne/Osbourne in the 3rd Guards. Mistakes in transcriptions and variances in spelling based on illiterate soldiers not knowing how to spell their surnames is common. Just to complicate matters, I have also found a copy of an original muster list of 'returned Waterloo medals' (i.e. returned to Horse Guards) which states that a Waterloo Medal for Private George Osborne was returned given that he was "dead - born at Hanbury Wocester".

The copy Osborne service papers I have, show the man 'Osborne' served at Waterloo with the 3rd Foot Guards (but doesn't give his Company) and was discharged in 1821. The papers give his place of birth as Wolverhampton, Stafford.

Not sure how all this helps you (or not)! Still, you are welcome to copies of the papers I found - just pm your email.

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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Iain » May 23rd, 2017, 12:31 pm

Thank you Owen… I have just PM’d you my email address.

Very interesting !
I’m a member of Ancestry and because I was nearly certain about the spelling of his name, (thanks to ‘FindMyPast’) I didn’t try any variants. But as you say, it’s sometimes the pen-pushers that create the problems.
(lol…, on my birth certificate it is written Ian instead of Iain)

What’s more, I didn’t have Hanbury or Woulverhampton to play with so that’s now become an important find ! (infernal RHQ with no archives !)
'returned Waterloo medals' -- very interesting !

Your account by Mick Crumplin is also interesting and obviously taken from Gareth Glover’s book ‘Myth and Reality.’
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Gfp ... en&f=false
The word ‘Myth’ should have rang an alarm bell. With it being suggested that her wounds could have been received in the farm itself, obviously linked her to the Light Company.
Another Hougoumont Myth booted.

I’ll continue the research because if she did receive the Queen Anne’s Bounty, then she certainly merits a mention on the Napoleonic Wars Forum.

Thank you again Owen…, I’ll keep you updated.

Kind Regards…, Iain.
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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby Owen » May 23rd, 2017, 5:58 pm

Iain,

My pleasure - it's an interesting story. Got your pm and have sent you emails with documents attached.

Since doing so,I checked one of my own Hougoumont reference books 'Hougoumont The Key to Victory at Waterloo' by Julian Paget & and Derek Saunders. Found the following, which adds to the account by stating that the Queens Bounty for Mrs Osborne (sic) was at the recommendation of Lt Col Bowater.

"Among the wounded should be remembered Mrs Osborne,the wife of Private George Osborne of the Third Guards, whom she had married at Enghein on St George’s Day (23 April) that year. She was in the thick of the fighting all day, looking after the wounded, and tearing up her own spare clothing to make bandages. She was eventually severely wounded herself by a musket shot in the arm and left breast, but she survived. As a result of recommendations by Lieutenant—Colonel Edward Bowater, whose wound she had dressed on the battlefield, she was later awarded the Queen’s Bounty."

Owen
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Re: 'Scots Guards' Company Returns: The 24th of June 1815.

Postby MarkW » May 24th, 2017, 1:27 am

Iain,
very interesting stuff...why did you pick George Osborn(e)?
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